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First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

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Old July 15th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
minimalist minimalist is offline
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Default First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

I'm at my shop re-running some hat defects that my operator didn't catch that have to go out Monday.

Since I don't like babysitting the 6 head Barudan I thought I would run my recent acquisition which is a '06 ZSK J head single. I've never run a cap on this machine and it took some time to trick the machine into sewing a larger field (2 1/2 inches) on a hat and actually get the driver on the machine. Leave it to the Germans to go into great detail without actually showing how the driver mounts in the instruction manual. Also the hat was three sided embroidery encompassing 270 degrees.

The Barudan I'm running in this comparison is a '05 520 full size single head. Both machines are running 80/12 sharp point needles and running the same thread.

First thing I noticed was that the ZSK could sew the design at 710 spm minimizing thread breaks to 0-2 per run. The Barudan had to be slowed down to 600 spm and would break during that speed at 4-6 per run. The design is 19000 stitches completely filled.

One thing I would point out is that trying to hoop hats perfectly straight on all sides is not easy since text is on one side of the design. I would say the ZSK is easier to hoop straight since it has one clamp that goes over the top instead of Barudan's 2 that go over the top and under the bill. Both cap frames really need some engineering updates as I think that the barbs that contact the hat around the sides need to be increased and not so wide on the Barudan. I'm referring to the bottom barbs versus the top barbs which run across the bill. The Barudan pushes the hat inward so the side embroidery has to be moved upward or it pulls the design. The ZSK has the same issue but is related to the height of the cap frame versus the drive. It's not really fixable but the updates with the barbs would help both machines considerably.

I've had some problem with the Barudan when you have to change bobbins. It seems like the registration is always off slightly when the bobbin runs out in a detailed part of the design. I took the time to adjust the driver so that everything was tight. I always change bobbins and calculate how many before changes to minimize the run out during a design. I had the thread break that involved taking the hat frame off the machine and even though I adjusted it the problem still exists. The Barudan for those who don't know has two locking points.

If I compare the above to the ZSK, the ZSK has three locking attachments and I've run out of thread during the design and the registration stays spot on. While my adjustment of the Barudan above might make each equal, I do like the three locking positions on the ZSK.

One thing I don't care for on the ZSK occurs when you do have a thread break or change a bobbin. When backing the machine up a few stitches after the above, the Barudan reaches the point of the break and stops. The ZSK just keeps going without stopping. I just stop the machine and trim the thread manually on a thread break and use the auto cutter on a bobbin change.

Another issue with the ZSK is that the machine runs for a few stitches after a thread break so you have to be careful and back up until you have passed the point of the break.

All in all I think the ZSK wins here simply because it can get the job done quicker.
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Old July 15th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
jssans jssans is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

I run caps on my 6 & 8 head Barudans at 850 all the time. My Barudans are 2012's. I don't have any looseness in my cap frames. Are you telling me I will have they issues in about 6 years or sooner?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
jennidex12 jennidex12 is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

i have a same problem so plz tell me how we resolve it our-self we are worried about it
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Old July 16th, 2012, 11:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
minimalist minimalist is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

I went over the entire frame and think I have found what may be causing the play in the frame. The two release levers on the driver (the ones you push to release the frame from the driver) seem to have some wear on the pins that lock into the cap frame. This particular issue has to do with tightness of the locking into the driver.

The main issue is the gold colored plate mounted on the top of the blue driver frame. It is showing wear on either side of the plate causing the cap frame to move from side to side slightly. This plate goes through the cap frame pushing against a pin with a spring. Here is a diagram of the cap frame and the other link is the part:

http://www.shopbarudan.com/c-93-parts-ex-elite.aspx

http://www.shopbarudan.com/p-3169-ef...rive-unit.aspx

Here are the levers:

http://www.shopbarudan.com/p-3170-ef...assy-left.aspx

http://www.shopbarudan.com/p-3171-ef...ssy-right.aspx

I'm going to assume that the top plate above was made from a softer metal so that the aluminum driver ring wasn't the sacrificial part. If the plate was heat treated and stiff the resulting issue might have been the wear of the aluminum driver ring mounting holes which would have been a more expensive part to replace.

I'm going to repost this as a separate thread so that others with this problem might see it.

Jssans,

It looks like the parts involved are about $140 a driver. Over a period of 5-7 years I would think that isn't too much to keep the driver tight.

I couldn't run mine that fast on flats without breaks of thread and needles. As we discussed before I think you have updated servo motors in yours allowing you higher speeds. I briefly ran the ZSK at 900 on the hats I ran in the previous post. It did it but my ears tell me that the parts moving don't like it. I worked on industrial machines for 20 years in my previous business and know from experience what happens when you run the machine at full speed all the time. Maybe embroidery machines are different but I'll err on the side of caution since my warranty was up awhile ago.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #5 (permalink)
inkman996 inkman996 is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

On our 12 head Barudan year 97 we run hats at 750. I don't think its fair to blame the machine they are designed to run at these speeds and hats at that speed. It always comes down to maintaining your equipment and accessories.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
minimalist minimalist is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

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Originally Posted by inkman996 View Post
On our 12 head Barudan year 97 we run hats at 750. I don't think its fair to blame the machine they are designed to run at these speeds and hats at that speed. It always comes down to maintaining your equipment and accessories.
I've seen lots of mechanical equipment designed to run at xxx speed. Any manufacturer can make a claim but out in the field is where reality sets in. I don't doubt anyone's ability to run the machine at high speeds. What I do have experience in is the mechanical part of the sewing machine. Most industrial machines come with high speed motors. An operator gets used to the machine and runs it full speed whenever they can. This is great for production in a vacuum but in reality I'm out there all the time replacing hooks, shuttles, needle bars, and drive gears. Then I came up with the solution of stepping down the motors using smaller pulley's dropping the speed down to 600. Production increased because of less down time on machines as well as costs went down for replacement parts. I'm talking 25 small industrial machines of various configuration here. I even had 2 Juki TSC441 large industrial machines I ran for 14 years replacing only a friction wheel for the internal bobbin winder.

Our machines are basically sewing machines. Manufacturers want you to figure that I can run xxx pieces in xxx minutes at the machines maximum speed. Great, fine. I'll reduce it in the name of reliability. If you're getting 750 out of your machines I commend you. All I did in this thread was to make an informal comparison of like machines from my experience. I did run the ZSK at 900 spm briefly on the hats but slowed it down to what I thought sounded like a reasonable level.

Now for the unfair part. Barudan's driver is aluminum and barudan's cap frame is steel. So you have one wear part on the driver made out of aluminum that the steel frame will wear out from it's side to side motion. Then you have two soft steel levers on the cap driver that wear from the locking action of the frame to the driver.

ZSK's driver and cap frame are stainless steel with three locking points. It has no play in it whatsoever. The levers that lock the frame are steel wedges that with little wear will still lock tightly because of their design as a wedge. Even so, the wedges are replaceable only instead of the entire lever.

Which one is the better design? Looking at it from a engineering aspect, I'd say the driver and frame design is better on the ZSK. Even my machine tech spoke highly of ZSK hat production. However, he said the Barudan is better at flats which I agree.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
jssans jssans is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

Minimalist, I find all of your experiences on your Barudans valuable. I have investigated the servo motors on Barudans and they only put them on 12 heads or greater. Barudan rep. told me servos would not increase any quality in any machine under 12 heads. I can see the replacement of the cap frame parts being needed over thousands of uses. I still think your machine should run quicker. I will be disappointed If my Barudans can only run at 600. If they start doing it after 6 years I'll have to buy new again. I need the speed!
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Old July 17th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
minimalist minimalist is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

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Originally Posted by jssans View Post
Minimalist, I find all of your experiences on your Barudans valuable. I have investigated the servo motors on Barudans and they only put them on 12 heads or greater. Barudan rep. told me servos would not increase any quality in any machine under 12 heads. I can see the replacement of the cap frame parts being needed over thousands of uses. I still think your machine should run quicker. I will be disappointed If my Barudans can only run at 600. If they start doing it after 6 years I'll have to buy new again. I need the speed!

Thanks for your kind words. Please keep us updated with the ongoing results of your new machine. I remember commenting on the thread about Barudan's before you bought yours.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 11:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
MMMEMB MMMEMB is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

Zsk is pcs of junk
i had zsk runing with barudan nothing compare to barudan
please please done buy zsk you will be disappaoint
i can tell you 100 thinks about zsk nothing copair to barudan
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Old December 22nd, 2016, 10:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
MMMEMB MMMEMB is offline
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Default Re: First hand Barudan vs ZSK hat sewing comparison.

please show me ZSK puff embroidery on cap, nothing better than Barudan
and service and support from ZSK 00000000. zero
Bob And Nick--- no support. if you have problem they will never reply
zip zip guy from Germany President (Julius) wants to call you and make it work
but you will never get problem solve
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