How to Protect Yourself when Purchasing Capital Equipment part 2

Prosperi-Tees · April 12th, 2012, 09:42 PM

I don't think Rich has any, well very little bias. I remember reading his post that there are many good manufacturers of presses. Taking a chance on something new or unproven or without good regional support is not a smart move.
When I was new press shopping I spoke with MnR, Brown, Anatol and Workhorse and if I were to rank the 'feeling' I got from them about how well they would support me and take care of whatever issues came up are:
1) Brown 2) MnR 3) Workhorse 4) Anatol.
MnR was the only one to show up at my shop though, I don't think any other manufacturer has the sales force present in the U.S. to be able to do that.

I just think we in the U.S. should be buying U.S. built machines. The overseas machines are fascinating to look at but may not be the best choice if you can't afford downtime. But I also think the U.S. machines should start looking into adopting some of the newer technology but be very careful about it. Some technology will give you a headache if not thought thru.

For instance in a previous career, the company I worked for decided to upgrade the old dispensing machines that were old technology (think Workhorse and Brown) but they just worked and worked and worked, may have needed a little bit of maintenance on the mechanical parts but breakdowns were rare. So in comes new technology (think Ptex) touted as the best thing going, maintence free, faster, easier to use blah blah blah. Well the machines looked good, performed well when they worked. Those machines broke down more in one year than the old machines did in 10 years. The good thing was the company was very good at getting techs out and addressing problems but we did have 4 machines so if 1 went down we could shift work around. If we only had one machine we would have been completely screwed.

This was probably the wrong place to post this but oh well, nobody ever follows the main topic of threads anymore lol.

Printwizard · April 13th, 2012, 08:10 AM

The success of MnR was built on the backs of small printers like us who grew out of basements and garages and sweated blood to save and grow and invest in their machinery.
That's right MnR wouldn't be where they are today if it weren't for the entrepreneurial spirit of printers in America and around the world, even New Zealand!

Applying the above logic, MnR would be completely out of business if our customers looking to buy printed t-shirts applied 244's "only buy from BIG companies" mentality, extrapolate that out and say that big printers with scale do it better, so only buy from shops who convert say 500k or a million shirts a year. That rules out most of us, the guy in the garage, the guy growing, celebrating taking on staff, moving up, bigger building, another wheel, and then an entry level auto, and onto a mid level machine - all too risky to deal with, all wiped out on Mr Hoffmans logic, I mean its only printing right, not 10 / 20 / 50 grand on an auto. WRONG! What we produce is essential for a clients appearance, marketing, product launches, annual appeals, brand strategies, some mums and dads mortgage their houses and bank their asses on their business and put it in our hands, printers like you and me who dont meet 244's check list, heck how many DiamondBacks did 244 tout he had on order recently (something like 30+) never mind manual machines, exposure units, and the like. He wants to advocate the little guy and make out hes on the side of the battler trying to make a fair and honest way, yet put into place rules for purchasing condradictory to hold his competitors or new entrants down, and that my friends is not the spirit that America or printing was built on. Cant we champion the little man in a fair spirit as well?

So which is it Mr. Hoffman? Do you believe in small business? Or only when its lining you're own pockets?

I believe this is a hypocritical paradox 244 has created for himself.

Take a small company like 2M who builds the RPM / Mustang as an example, shouldn't printers as a small business buy from 2M? As you grow your t-shirt company shouldn't you practice what you preach? Aren't you asking much bigger companies than you to trust in your ability as a small business to provide them with printed apparel, promotional goods, packaging and signs? Many multinational brands have been printed in garages, and small factories by good people delivering as agreed, even supplying unscrupulous print brokers, promo companies and intermediary agents and on-sellers. Now you can make the argument that a t-shirt is a lot different than a piece of capital equipment, but aren't the smaller companies more innovative than the bigger ones? Small companies certainly have more at stake than the big ones - we bet our next weeks rent or mortgage payment, juggle bills, wages for staff we know to put food on their plates - not staff who are numbers. By being small we are more accountable to the bottom line and repurcussions of something not delivered, out of spec or retutation from a dis-satisfied customer. Its our immediate cash on the line, not bondholders or corporate shareholders, and what we do now, todays deliveries, affects us in the following months.
So, if 244 has so many orders on the floor then why would it matter so much if 2M/RPM/Mustang absorbed 5 or 6 machines a month out of the market, or for that matter any small or new entrant.

These principals are in any industry. Growing up I was in awe of Disney, Hollywood and Brand America. It was beyond concept that outside Hollywood anything but the news or sports could be made for TV. Thirty years later most countries have decent local content. Here in NZ we have Weta Studios and Peter Jackson putting out LOTR, Avatar, The last Samurai, PowerRangers etc, and James Cameron (Titanic and Avatar) is moving here to live, close to Weta Workshops. Every Oscars we win at least one these days. These are the small guys with no credibility who started out of garages with camcorders.

I don't want to get into the technology feature battle, but I want to mention evolution. I talked to my dad on this. He worked in apparel a long time then started printing in 1974 out on his own, from a garage too. Building up into a sizeable clothing manufacturer knitting the fabric, making the garments and printing, originally with a four colour carousel, then a six, another six and finally with a TAS. I started printing properly in 1992. So in that time much has changed in machinery and hardware, process, and consumables.

Continuous improvement and innovation. Its a bit like empires, they start from nothing, they rise, some stay, some fall and others rise and replace them. Business is just the same. Suppliers who were leaders became complacent, others innovated, trialled and tweaked new lines and people trialled their wares and the industry moved forward. The machines, equipment, ink, consumables, art and film, screenmaking, computers, and now DTG is all about innovation, evolution and newer features and technology to improve speed, quality, changeovers etc. None of the leaders just happened, they all started out with one thing, asked people to believe in them and try them, and in return they would give value and service them well so that they would grow with their reputation. For smaller companies it may be argued they are hungrier in that customer service is more important and they work harder for reputation to justify themselves to compete and grow.

Now i am not knocking all the benefits of economy of scale and size, the ability to move resources in larger amount or faster if they had or wanted to as this and many of Rich's points do have logic and validity if looked at from his angle. There are many benefits, but history points to many failures also of big and dominant players, but I dont want to turn this into a finger pointing game either. All I am saying is to set generalistic rules written by one company doesnt mean its right or correct by any means and some people may not open their eyes to a peice of equipment that maybe more suits their operation because they predetermine and write off many options before they create a shortlist.

Here is the bigger picture that needs to be said, if Mustang wasn't such a threat to MnR then why are these MnR supporters working so hard to discredit the Mustang?

I will tell you why, 2M has been perfecting their machine for almost a decade, with a 2M Rhino in the field recently acheiving over 10 MILLION impressions M&R now has a real dilemma, M&R can no longer say the competitions machine won't last, nor can M&R say the 2M products don't have phenomenal resale value. What does this mean for M&R in the future? Screen Printers are going to seriously evaluate and consider the Mustang and RPM made by 2M against Sportsman made by MnR. Why you ask? Simple, RPM / Mustang can offer a screen printer looking at that bracket IMO a far better design with advanced functionality that is 100% proven to work, add comparable longevity, for about the same money and it's a no-brainer.

My prediction is that many traditional MHM, TAS, Anatol and M&R buyers looking at mid to high level Sportsmans and Challenger III's will start to look at and choose the RPM / Mustang by 2M because of the features at a possibly cheaper price. This is not about features for features sake, or price for who can be lowest, I am talking about functionality, quality, useability, lifespan, re-sale, speed, cost of maintenance, lack of downtime or failures, simplicity, use of common and easily replaced parts, speed and ease of use, speed of changeover and makeready or set-ups. In other words best real value. Now like I said this will vary from shop to shop according to what you do, how you do, why you do where you do etc. There will be different strokes for different folks, across all the models, and across all the manufacturers.

So, where does this leave MnR in the near future, no where different really at all, it just means that 2M will continue to grow their small business one P24 Mustang or an RPM at a time.
MnR have a good and solid business making good and solid machines. Ive frequently said I think between them and Vastex they make the best carousels, and the Diamondback and Anatols IMO have the best entry level automatics. The Sportsmans and CIII's are reliable and you never hear many faults with them, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with any of their product range, and I could not imagine MnR dissappearing any time soon. The greatest asset they have is Rich Hoffman. I am in awe of his service level and dedication to his customers, he is fantastic at this and the loyalty and respect he has earned is genuinely deserved. While Rich is heading MnR and controlling the compnay culture they will continue to do their best to get every sale and look after those clients through the life of the service contracts.

Printwizard · April 13th, 2012, 08:10 AM

Now, the ususal knockers will come in and attack Barnes and try and tie 2M to Printex and derail this but the reality is that 2M has a super competitive model when compared to other models like the Sportsman which is not a bad product, M&R has proved that they build fairly reliable "basic design" equipment with simple, proven, accepted, traditional features.

My opinion is that up until the RPM / Mustang, M&R has had the luxury of being the biggest and locally made mid to high range automatic, and with that M&R hasn't really needed to innovate all that much to stay in business, with that said, one would think that a company the size of M&R and with the resources that would normally be afforded to a market Goliath, that M&R would have re-invested much more in R&D of their own, not buying liquidated patents and to be the technology leader and companies like 2M would be trying to figure out a way to keep up (instead I think it is the other way around), and that is really the foundation of the entrepreneurial spirt that made America one of the greatest countries on earth.

This has taken me some time of course, but I have more in draft form about the purchasing process in a more neutral context rather than written by MnR for MnR, so watch this space for my next version......

GraphicDisorder · April 13th, 2012, 09:29 AM

So now you are re-posting like your buddy?

244 · April 13th, 2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Printwizard

Now, the ususal knockers will come in and attack Barnes and try and tie 2M to Printex and derail this but the reality is that 2M has a super competitive model when compared to other models like the Sportsman which is not a bad product, M&R has proved that they build fairly reliable "basic design" equipment with simple, proven, accepted, traditional features.

My opinion is that up until the RPM / Mustang, M&R has had the luxury of being the biggest and locally made mid to high range automatic, and with that M&R hasn't really needed to innovate all that much to stay in business, with that said, one would think that a company the size of M&R and with the resources that would normally be afforded to a market Goliath, that M&R would have re-invested much more in R&D of their own, not buying liquidated patents and to be the technology leader and companies like 2M would be trying to figure out a way to keep up (instead I think it is the other way around), and that is really the foundation of the entrepreneurial spirt that made America one of the greatest countries on earth.

This has taken me some time of course, but I have more in draft form about the purchasing process in a more neutral context rather than written by MnR for MnR, so watch this space for my next version......

My post was as generic as I could possibly be. The information posted can be used by any printer with any manufacturer they have a desire to do business with. This information is not M&R specific nor favored. Its here to help and if its not helpful to you feel free to ignore it.

Printwizard · April 13th, 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 244

My post was as generic as I could possibly be. The information posted can be used by any printer with any manufacturer they have a desire to do business with. This information is not M&R specific nor favored. Its here to help and if its not helpful to you feel free to ignore it.

sorry 244, I think you authored this mostly for your home market where you aree the big and main provider and check all those boxes, so therefore it is favored to MnR. And with that its biased against any new entrant to your main home market. Rightly or wrongly so. If we took your rules and extrapolated it globally to markets you have a low share or few machines in, say Romania, Portugal, Angola, Brazil, Venezuala, I don't know, somewhere obscure given that you are a global giant??? In theory it means prints in those places shouldn't buy your machines over what may be more of a local brand and someone where the manufacturer might speak their language more or someone like SRoque may have the dominant share, and perhaps have a deal and support networks, techs or found independent engineers who they endorse and can support as their " install and field representatives" already. That's total BS.

For big compressors down here, most of them are Mitsui from Japan, one local agent and other compressor services have to buy their parts at a horrendous cost through them. I've recently found out Gardner Denver in the US from an engineer, and man, they are easy compressors to sell, big ones, $50-90k. Now there is no website here, no trained Gardner Denver crew, yet they promise air freighting parts above the essential parts package, all the local compressor people know enough fundamentals and schematics to easily recon and service them, and number nine arrives on Sunday. I think it's likely we could sell this off as a separate business, without techs, without websites as the market is easily to sell over one unit a week, given a nudge by someone who wants to push it.

So one one side of the coin, your list is a bit defensive. On the other side and in reference to Ink / Mike saying this was for entry level printers, well you could apply some of the same principal applies right the way up. I mean it wasn't their first machines that him, Leon and Jeff got burned on, And there is your point. I do agree that there should be some checklist, but maybe it's got to be less defensive for smaller manufacturers like 2M who are established, or well established players wanting to move into the US market, like Schenk or SRoque.
Problem is the small guy can't go out and hire 50 techs for every state on day one. They may however sell XYZ Printshop the first auto in Bloomington, and while there vet some local companies for air, electrical engineering, and actual engineering, bring them in for the install, show them the basics, leave a wiring diagram, parts schematics with their phone numbers, overview of service requirements, common replacements etc and in theory any decent contractor with the right tools should easily be able to take care of them efficiently because they are local and these machines are well built and simple enough.
And that is the fear factor end, downtime. In reality I don't think Alan's 2M RPM has even needed a tech for any maintenance.

cnasherman · April 15th, 2012, 05:58 PM

Great info Rich.....
Even if these entire posts were pure M&R driven, so F'n what!!!! Isn't he aloud to push his brand? Isn't he in business to sell his own equipment?
I didn't read anywhere where Rich put down any other brand and said don't buy their equipment!
He just went about it in a very professional way....not like some people.

I guess he isn't aloud to sell/push his company on a classified forum....yeah, that makes a lot of sense.