Rebuttal Post - Reports of M&R AC Print-Head Issues

screenmachines · July 5th, 2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Machines

Do you at the very least agree that this is the worst way to mount one :-?

Based on the admittedly vast number of these you have personally rebuilt I would find it strange that you are soooooo admit about defending them ... How many M&R belts have you changed -vs- M&R GearBoxes :-?

I don't agree, I've changed belts on the Old Formula style. More then I have heard of people changing gearboxes on the newer machines. I have replaced a few gearboxes in my years. Most because belts get tightened to tight and caused an issue not because they were mounted wrong. This is only an opinion, and it's mine.

preston · July 5th, 2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by screenmachines

I don't agree, I've changed belts on the Old Formula style. More then I have heard of people changing gearboxes on the newer machines. I have replaced a few gearboxes in my years. Most because belts get tightened to tight and caused an issue not because they were mounted wrong. This is only an opinion, and it's mine.

If you can tighten a belt tight enough to damage a 90 degree gear reduction then that is one cheap gear reduction.

screenmachines · July 5th, 2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Machines

OMG ... I literally can't stop laughing ... I have tears in my eyes ... ScreenMachines has no idea what she is posting about ... Toooooo Funnny :-@

Note: her DiamondBack doesn't have A/C Printheads ... still can't stop laughing ... OMG :-D

Even Preston understood it. Guess your blinded, by all those great machines, which is it this week?

Preston, you know even the best gearbox in the world will fail if you over tighten the belt and let it run that way for long periods.

Funny how she shows a picture of a failed gearbox, then a cut out of a different gearbox, compare APPLES to APPLES.

I just made a few calls, guess what I can't find one manufacture of gearboxs that say the way M&R mounts them would be incorrect. So with that your picking and choosing opinions.

preston · July 5th, 2011, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by screenmachines

Even Preston understood it. Guess your blinded, by all those great machines, which is it this week?

Preston, you know even the best gearbox in the world will fail if you over tighten the belt and let it run that way for long periods.

I guess all the non-textile machines I have worked on in my life had better 90 degree gear boxes. Had some starting and stopping 60 tons with a side load drive. Never a failure due to that. Can you tighten a belt to 60 tons of tension?

pwalsh · July 5th, 2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider-Machines

Note: Inkman must of tightened his spring tooooo much -and- that's why he needs a bigger lift cylinder ... Right?

C'mon ... Printex drop'd the ball -and- Spider Machines wants to resolve it <--- that's the way it should be done :-))

Robert: For you to admit that there are real issues that need to be corrected on Inkman's Printex press, and further more that you would express your desire to resolve the situation is a credit to you. Well done, very well done indeed. Unfortunately it would appear from what's been posted that Inkman, and Dan the Company Owner have developed a major distrust of what might happen if they allow you onto their premises to work on the machine.

Given that this stand-off that is helping no-one, I wanted to ask you if there was anyone other than yourself from the PrintEx or Spider Machines organization(s), who could make an on-site visit to address the open issues with this press? If it turns out that you are the most qualified person to visit Dan's shop I was wondering would you be willing to propose the following conditions to cover your visit into Dan's shop, and if not why not?

Only essential personnel from Printex and their Service /Repair agent Spider Machines would be allowed entry to Dan's facility.
This would exclude non-essential personnel such as Webgurl, Preston, or other people who are not directly required in the repair process from entering Dan's shop.
Absolutely no electronic or photographic recording of any kind to be performed by Printex /Spider Machines during your visit to Dan's facility.
In the event that photographic recording is required to facilitate repair of the defects to the press, then such actions will be performed by Representatives of Dan's company.
Copyrighted/restricted use copies of essential video or still images supplied to Printex/Spider Machines on an as needed basis, to be used strictly on an internal basis.

I've deliberately avoided making any comment on this issue previously as I felt that the situation was best addressed between the customer and the manufacturer directly. Given that the problems have been debated openly in these forums by both parties I thought that it couldn't hurt to offer both of you guys some common sense advice that might help Dan and Mike put these issues behind them, and also help PrintEx on the way to having another satisfied customer.

Spider-Machines · July 5th, 2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalsh

Robert: For you to admit that there are real issues that need to be corrected on Inkman's Printex press, and further more that you would express your desire to resolve the situation is a credit to you. Well done, very well done indeed. Unfortunately it would appear from what's been posted that Inkman, and Dan the Company Owner have developed a major distrust of what might happen if they allow you onto their premises to work on the machine.

Given that this stand-off that is helping no-one, I wanted to ask you if there was anyone other than yourself from the PrintEx or Spider Machines organization(s), who could make an on-site visit to address the open issues with this press? If it turns out that you are the most qualified person to visit Dan's shop I was wondering would you be willing to propose the following conditions to cover your visit into Dan's shop, and if not why not?

Only essential personnel from Printex and their Service /Repair agent Spider Machines would be allowed entry to Dan's facility.
This would exclude non-essential personnel such as Webgurl, Preston, or other people who are not directly required in the repair process from entering Dan's shop.
Absolutely no electronic or photographic recording of any kind to be performed by Printex /Spider Machines during your visit to Dan's facility.
In the event that photographic recording is required to facilitate repair of the defects to the press, then such actions will be performed by Representatives of Dan's company.
Copyrighted/restricted use copies of essential video or still images supplied to Printex/Spider Machines on an as needed basis, to be used strictly on an internal basis.

I've deliberately avoided making any comment on this issue previously as I felt that the situation was best addressed between the customer and the manufacturer directly. Given that the problems have been debated openly in these forums by both parties I thought that it couldn't hurt to offer both of you guys some common sense advice that might help Dan and Mike put these issues behind them, and also help PrintEx on the way to having another satisfied customer.

Thank you Peter for this post ... Spiderman will personally go into Dan's building ALONE (no one else) <--- they have my permission to setup a webcam, video camera surveillance, take as many pics as they please (the sole purpose of my visit will be to identify ANY issues -and- get the information needed to the Boyz in Poland -then- layout a planned timeline of corrective action)

Follow up visit will be 100% solution based ... Spiderman has ALWAYS supported his customers -and- this can be a great opportunity to prove it to ALL the naysayers :-))

Once again ... Thank you Peter for your post :-D

Promo Print · July 6th, 2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalsh

Robert: I'm back because the DigitSmith Site Administrators have implemented a level of moderation that curtails the personal attacks, and spread of blatantly false information. Your guy posted a lot of information on the design that M&R used for their AC print-head drives, and even went as far as to suggest that the system that another manufacturer is using is more effective.

I refute the points that were made in the original post and have responded with a series of specific questions related to the design that M&R and PrintEx are using on their AC drive print-heads. I’d greatly appreciate getting “Qualified” answers to these specific questions rather than you just reposting the original unsubstantiated statements.

Is the method that M&R is using to mount these WGR’s with the electric motor mounted vertically down, a manufacturer approved method?
What is the “Mean Time Between Failure” (MTBF), and primary cause of failure that M&R has experienced from mounting WGR’s this way?
Why does M&R utilize a more expensive WGR in their design when a simpler system of a toothed belt and pulley reduction is available?
What additional level of friction and inefficiency is created by using a toothed drive belt versus the minimal drag of a lubricated WGR?
What MTBF, or other issues with their drive mechanism has this alternative manufacturer experienced?

BTW, Here’s a couple of additional questions to add to the list:

Do you realize that M&R’s original AC print-head drives from 10+ years ago used a very similar drive belt and reduction pulley system to what PrintEx uses today?
Do you think there’s a possibility that M&R learned something about this design approach that drove their decision to move to a more expensive AC drive system that utilizes a worm gear reducer?

Hi Peter

Nice to have you back. I personally do not understand much technical part that you and Robert are arguing.
In my opinion belt does seems like simpler, more elegant and easier solution.
If you want to replace motor, you unbolt it and bolt new one. If belt snaps you put new one. I have no doubt that belt can last long time and perform well. After all, every car motor spins over cam belt and cam belt can last up to 100 000km.
Thing that interest me is why M&R steeped away from that concept?
Rich once used about the same line that you used, but he never elaborated on why M&R did it.
Providing yours long term relationship with M&R do you maybe know answer to that?

screenmachines · July 7th, 2011, 12:26 AM

Direct AC Drive Facts
1. Custom motor required
2. Direct drive motor can cost 5 to 7 times more then a standard motor
3. Requires more amps to produce the same torgue ratings as drive system with motor / gearbox combo

For lower speed/higher torque applications right angle gearboxs are recomemded by nearly all major manufactures of Frequency Drives.

Motor/Gearbox Facts
1. More componets in the drive system
2. Requires routine maintenance

There are many ways to drive to Chicago. Just because everyone takes a different route, don't really mean they are wrong.
All information was found on the interent in minutes.
So the way I see it, as long at each manufacture mounts the parts in their chosen drive system according to specs, they are both right.

preston · July 7th, 2011, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by screenmachines

Direct AC Drive Facts
1. Custom motor required
2. Direct drive motor can cost 5 to 7 times more then a standard motor
3. Requires more amps to produce the same torgue ratings as drive system with motor / gearbox combo

For lower speed/higher torque applications right angle gearboxs are recomemded by nearly all major manufactures of Frequency Drives.

Motor/Gearbox Facts
1. More componets in the drive system
2. Requires routine maintenance

There are many ways to drive to Chicago. Just because everyone takes a different route, don't really mean they are wrong.
All information was found on the interent in minutes.
So the way I see it, as long at each manufacture mounts the parts in their chosen drive system according to specs, they are both right.

I think you need to go back to school on the AC Drive facts. And a little brush up on angle drive would not hurt either.

Printwizard · July 7th, 2011, 05:52 AM

Great, we can get over who screenmachines works for then! End of story and I never have to read that line, awesome!!! I love the debate that Peter Nazdar and Screenmachines are bringing to the table, it's healthy, I don't understand enough to pick sides, but it is educational.
I like the comment on driving different routes, and thinking on that, there wouldn't be fifty machine manufacturers if they all only made the exact same models out of the exact same componentry and were all clones of each other. Each company goes down different routes in terms of development, technology, putting things in for ease, taking them out for ease, costs, history hindsight, research, new technology resources and tooling, and a whole lot of reasons I will never know or understand, that's not to say they are all right or all wrong. Some may be better in some ways, worse in others. They may also look at simplification for cost, but that's about making a profit, and you are in business to make money, not for love or ego.
In terms of maintenance, all machinery and vehicles need some degree of servicing and maintenance based on time and usage.
Perhaps an interesting thread may be a fifteen year maintenance cost per machine design or per head, or per hundred thousand impressions as an overall machine cost extrapolation, rather than on some components or parts on some models. That way printers could budget in repairs and maintenance on a per job or shirt price or overhead cost with a relatively known quantity and this cost could be factored in buying decisions of machine models and brands as part of the decision process like purchase cost versus running cost.
Different answers are not necessarily wrong answers in the big picture. You could end up arguing the beige or white shade of RPM makes it easier to spot oil or grease on the paint than Printex or MnR, but overall in the bigger scheme it's not the reason not to buy a blue shade, or for those manufacturers to start painting their machines beige.....
But keep up the points, it's healthy, great and informative even if I don't know enough to decide a clear winner, at least I am not reading and thinking Anatol!