S.Roque - Anyone?

GraphicDisorder · July 12th, 2012, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alclpost

I am not a huge fan of how much the press "shakes"- I am talking about the abrupt STOP it comes to after indexing(I know a lot of that has to do with the fact our current press is pneumatic indexing).

I would say ALL of that has to do with air indexing. I have a M&R Auto, all Servo, no shaking here.

Printficient · July 12th, 2012, 07:58 AM

Although Inkman thinks I have an agenda, I have no dog in this fight. The ONLY reason to buy an MHM is potential revenue. An MHM will produce about 50% more shirts than any other press out there if used properly and about 33% more if used improperly. There is no machine on the market that gets from last shirt to first shirt faster, not even close.

inkman996 · July 12th, 2012, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Printficient

Although Inkman thinks I have an agenda, I have no dog in this fight. The ONLY reason to buy an MHM is potential revenue. An MHM will produce about 50% more shirts than any other press out there if used properly and about 33% more if used improperly. There is no machine on the market that gets from last shirt to first shirt faster, not even close.

See Sonny for a man with no agenda that statement you just made is ridiculous! The MHM cannot realize them numbers no frigging way! The only place the MHM is faster than the other major presses is set up, well sonny on a ten thousand piece job the set up is a negligible! So how can the MHM produce %50 faster than the CHIII? they both can index faster than a human can handle. Your statement is biased and false as hell.

Put it this way. Take five 100 piece jobs set it up on my press with Tri loc then yours run them, in the end you might beat me by a mere ten minutes if that assuming we run the jobs at the same index speed.

GraphicDisorder · July 12th, 2012, 08:43 AM

Lol

srimonogramming · July 12th, 2012, 09:34 AM

My argument against Sonny/mhm has always been because he speaks of these hypothetical numbers that are blown so far out of proportion and aren't going to happen in a real shop. Yes, a 6 color job will probably set up about 3-4 minutes faster if you're lucky so a shop that does 10 6-color jobs a day will see some significant increase in productivity. But that doesn't happen here, or any other shop I've been in. Then the claims of 50% more production sounds great, but it's not nearly that much, and if you do buy an S-type, are your sales going to magically increase by that 50% margin so you can find out if it will do 50% more in a day? No, they won't. Look, I'd love to have the mhm setup on my machine, but that's about the only thing it does better or faster (indexing is faster on the mhm) than my machine and I could probably come up with several minutes of time saving features other presses have over the mhm that would negate the great setup time.

In Sonny's defense, in the right hands and scenario, the mhm could very well be a better choice of machine than the competition. But he does make it sound like if you buy the mhm you'll get all these benefits that are really affected by other factors that are shop specific.

Take a presses ability to flash quickly and say press number one can dry cycle at 1500/hour but the flash unit holds up production to only 800/hour, then you have our RPM that will dry cycle at 1100/hour but our flash is way stronger than press number one and we can actually run the press at 1000/hour with the flash, that's a much better/more believable scenario in a real shop. Just because a press will cycle at 1500/hour or you could conceivably do 50% more during the day with a press doesn't mean it will ever happen due to all the other variables. Some shops I know have a bigger faster press than we do, but we do more in a day due to other factors than pure press speed and setup.

inkman996 · July 12th, 2012, 09:43 AM

MHM is a known faster machine when it comes to set up. No doubt the machine is awesome in that regard. But set up time is only a small percentage of the over all production run. When it comes to index speed as Alan stated at what point is index speed already faster than a shop can handle? My press cycles at 1150+ and thats with out increasing the default index speed. Realistically tho we never have nor ever will runt at that speed. What I am saying is the MHM cannot claim to produce such a huge number more than any other machine on the market not happening. If this was even remotely true companies such as New Buffalo who have almost 30 automatics would run MHM's yet they run only M&R's.

alclpost · July 12th, 2012, 10:52 AM

I understand what Printficient is saying, "technacally" the MHM CAN produce more units at the maximum speed. But in order to hit that you would need probably 2 loaders/load stations and 2 unloaders/unload stations. I think the fastest we have ran our current press is around the 850/hr mark if I remember correctly.

But I do see a HUGE advantage of the quicker set up, I don't see how you couldn't. That being said, I also do not understand why someone would pay more for a MHM over a S.Roque? They have the same pre-registration units.

Printficient- If you don't mind, I would still like to know what it is about the carriage arm feature and the print method that you do not care for on the BASIC?

Thanks everyone!

inkman996 · July 12th, 2012, 11:04 AM

I have no complaints about the pre reg of the MHM its awesome! Never meant to imply its not great but I will say with a decent press and a triloc the two systems are both fast. On the MHM you have to modify all your screens, on the TriLoc you have to use carrier sheets, nothing is perfect.

I doubt the MHM can index any faster than the CHIII they are both probably equal in that regards.

Printficient · July 12th, 2012, 08:17 PM

Mike,
Let's do the math. 5 4 color 100 piece runs. Start to finish. Screens shot, shirts laid out, clean squeegees, 600 pcs per hour.
Run Time both machines = 50 minutes total. This is 10 minutes per run.
Set up time. This includes putting the screens in the press, registering them, putting squeegees floodbars and ink in and getting a print ready sample.
M&R per job 8-10 minutes plus or minus 2-4 minutes. The factors involved with the time discrepency are pallet removal, tri lock pallet placement spinning the tri lock platen to all screens raising clamping lowering etc., tri lock platen removal, print platen put on print shirt. How fast one does that time in and time out is NOT consistent throughout the day.
MHM per 1-3 minutes plus or minus 30 seconds. Reasons NO platen is involved. NO air clamping. NO air locks on squeegee and floodbar. NO registering on press ( if pre press is right. )
So set ups for M&R for the 5 jobs total 30-50 minutes.
For the MHM 5-15 minutes.
Total production time M&R 90-100 minutes
Total production time MHM 55-65 minutes

Roughly speaking half the total time with the MHM.

You do bring up a valid point. On a 5000+ pc runs no real benefit.

However if I might be so bold as to point out that the profit margin is higher for most shops at runs under 144 pcs nay dare I say 72 pcs then the MHM is far more profitabls.

To clarify my statement. I have no dog in this fight as I DO NOT SELL EQUIPMENT.

Printficient · July 12th, 2012, 08:28 PM

To clarify my above statement...

MHM Value Proposition

* Unique and fast snap in Squeegee/Floodbar installation. No clamps needed.

MHM pull pin system is easier and faster than the mechanical or air clamp system as there are considerably less steps to perform.
Time Saving
6 color Job 3 mins
12 color Job 6 mins

* No tools easy to adjust Squeegee/Floodbar angle.

The competition requires you to loosen locking handles on both sides of the squeegee/floodbar.
MHM requires simply moving a lever, incremented in 5 degrees. No locking or unlocking required.
Time Saving
6 color job 3 mins
12 color job 5 mins

* Fast & Easy Pin locating Screen Holding System.
Holds screen end to end. No movement of frame that is common when using air clamping method which requires re adjustment taking additional time.
Time Saving
6 color job 4 mins
12 color job 8 mins

* Positive, fast and accurate True XY Micro Registration. No clamps
The MHM micro registration gives fast & precise true XY adjustment without having to lock/unlock the controls. The system on our competitors equipment moves the screen when locking/unlocking causing re adjustment of the screens into registration
Time savings
6 color Job 5 mins
12 color job 10 mins

* Print & flood stroke length adjustment
The MHM simply allows you to slide a plate to the desired travel distance.
No locking/unlocking needed and no wires to get snagged as is the case on our competitors equipment
Time savings
6 color job 3 mins
12 color job 6 mins

* Quartz Flash Units can be adjusted from main Control panel without stopping the machine.
This can be done on the MHM by simply increasing or decreasing the dwell time icon on the main touch screen control panel.
On our competitors equipment you have to access and go through several procedures to access this feature. Consequently the operator always stops the machine to make this adjustment.
Time savings
6 color job 2 mins
12 color job 3 mins

* Clean screens accessibility
The need to periodically clean the screens during production due to lint build up, especially when printing fleece, is made easy on MHM machines simply by touching the clean position icon on the main control panel. The machine will stop and the pallets will do a half index giving accessibility to the underside of the screens. Once the screen/screens are clean then touching the clean position icon again will move the pallets into the original position and the machine will continue to run in automatic mode.
On other equipment you have to stop the machine, hold down a reset button to disengage the pallet drive then manually move the pallets into a half index position to give screen accessibility. To return to normal production mode you have to, make sure you manually index the pallets in the opposite direction into the exact position then reengage the pallet drive.
Time savings on a 500 piece run
6 color job 6 mins
12 color job 8 mins

The above features will generate the following additional production and revenue over conventional Presses.

Time savings to set up a 6 color job 26 minutes
Time savings to set up a 12 color job 46 minutes

3 set ups per 8 hour shift. 6 Color 78 minutes
3 set ups per 8 hour shift. 14 color 138 minutes

Based on machine production of 500 per hour .6 Color job= 650 additional shirts pr 8 hrs
Based on machine production of 500 pr hr .12 Color Job= 1,150 additional shirts pr 8 hrs

At 50 cents per print on the 6 color job = an additional $325.00 per 8 hours
At 50 cents per print on the 12 color job = an additional $575.00 per 8 hours

Based on 5 x 8 hour shifts per week 6 color job $1,625.00 additional revenue
Based on 5 x 8 hour shifts per week 12 color job $2,875.00 additional revenue

50 work weeks per year 6 color job $81,250.00
50 work weeks per year 12 color job $143,750.00

Other Time Saving features

* Pallet change
To change pallets on the MHM machines simply touch the pallet change icon on the main control panel. This will unlock the pallet in the load/unload position. Simply lift the pallet off and place the new pallet in place. Touch the index icon and the pallets will lock, index and the pallets in the load/unload position will unlock. Repeat until all the pallets have been changed. Simple, fast, no leveling.
With the competition you have to reach under the pallet and loosen 4 levers, slide the pallet off, position the new pallet, slide it on and re lock the pallet in place with the 4 levers. You then have to manually move the pallets around to the next pallet is in the load/unload position and repeat until all the pallets are changed.
Time Saving
8 Pallet Machine 10 mins
14 Pallet Machine 14 mins

* Documented print parameters
The MHM has reference indicators for all print parameters on the machine, Squeegee pressure, Squeegee air pressure, Micro registration and memory that stores heads that are activated, how many squeegee/flood strokes on each head, Flash cure position, flash cure dwell time.
This information gives you the ability to recall this information when printing the same job at a later date resulting in a faster set up time.
Time Saving
6 Color Job 12 mins
12 Color Job 15 mins

Based on one pallet change per 8 hours and three job set ups the following additional revenue will be earned by having these features

Per 8 hour 6 color 46 mins
12 color 59 mins

Rick Roth Input
Rick feels the information is accurate and complete.
He suggested we work up a spreadsheet that customers can complete their own information on.
Also suggested we add a footnote stating that it does not include, pallet leveling and screen movement during operation.

Registration Pre Press
FPU vs. Tri Lock and Pin Registration

The cost savings on the MHM System are twofold. There is no need to buy carrier sheets for the film or the need to buy a bigger exposure unit to hold the Registration
frames which in turn hold the screens in the exposure unit.
This means we can use normal folders to catalog our art as we have no carrier sheets. The added dimensions of the other systems units that must be on your glass of your exposure unit may necessitate a bigger unit than you already have.
The benefit of pre registration is to decrease the registration part of set up times.
With this said, the MHM FPU is far superior to the others in 4 ways. They are: 1. No carrier sheets. 2. Better registration because we place each piece of film directly ON the screen and are thus insured of a tighter registration. 3. We can shoot as many screens at once that our exposure unit will hold. 4. Our FPU holds the screen the EXACT same way our presses hold the screen.

This is where the FPU will save you money as there are only 4 steps used on press as opposed to 15 – 18 steps used on press by our competitors.
MHM FPU steps are:
1. Place screens in press
2. Put squeegees, floodbars, and inks in screens
3. Run strike off and micro IF necessary
4. Begin run
M&R Tri Lock steps are:
1. Place screens in heads
2. Remove a platen from press
3. Put Tri-Lock platen on press
4. Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to first screen
5. Lock table
6. Raise table
7. Pull screen against the stops on Tri-Lock
8. Lock screen
9. Lower table
10. Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to next screen
11. Repeat steps 5-10 for all remaining screens
12. Remove Tri-Lock platen
13. Replace platen removed in step 2
14. Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
15. Print sample shirt
16. Micro registration if necessary
17. Begin run
Anatol with Pin Registration steps are:
1. Place screens in heads
2. Engage Pin Registration bars by swinging them out and locking them into position on the platen they are installed on
3. Free wheel or index platen to first screen
4. Lock table
5. Raise table
6. Pull screen to pins and hold
7. Lock screen
8. Lower table
9. Free wheel or index registration platen to next screen
10. Repeat steps 4 – 9
11. Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
12. Return Pin Registration bars to their stowed position
13. Print sample shirt
14. Micro registration if necessary
15. Begin run

The total time savings on an average MHM 6 color setup is 20 minutes.