What is the actual difference between RPM and Mustang??????

pushing ink · April 11th, 2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Printwizard

No, i am saying Barnes is one thing, Printex is another thing, and RPM Mustang is another thing. You cant blame 2M for Printex. And some of the things that have gone wrong and been sorted happen on all brands. Brandt, please tell me the open issues not sorted as of today on ANY RPM or Mustang? Its not that you care, you are just being a nieve shitstirrer with regards these two machines. Gilligan. I regularly talk a little with Artex - Miso Jevgenijevic, and our European franchise know of some other Printex machines. I know a few things not posted, and that I wont post. Graphic, there are a lot of skeletons around some of the manufacturers. Nobody wants the drama and stress of conflict, but if you knew some of the stories, listened to some tapes, saw some photos, read some documents and quotes you wouldnt be half as blinkered as you are now. There are a lot worse than 2M. I wouldnt want the legal nightmare. But there are many out there who know some skeletons..... Price gauging, Damaging machines, Faulty and no-fault parts replacements, deliberate damage during service, not servicing after minimum gaurantees, not servicing second hand near new machines, Software issues, Software supplied under spec and slowing the machine down so it wont run as fast, Sharing confidential company financials and customer data used when financing, selling machines not to specification, delaying service and parts supplies to certain customers, prices to some $60k over others who have had brand history and loyalty, refusing to service a 2005 machine just out of warranted parts supply period because they acted as a show shop also for a competing brand, helping poach sales staff and production managers for new factory getting new machines, grossly undervaluing trade-ins and buying back and re-trading the equipment 30k higher the week following, and a few that I would not mention because its too complicated or close to home. I know of nine people with "lists", and I am not about to compromise them or myself ever with details of whom, what, where, which brand in which case. As you often say "Preston thought he was the smartest person in the room". Dont throw stones in glasshouses. I dont know any industry that is as dirty in parts, some recent and some older history, and some unbelievable. In part from ex-staff ordered to do stuff, kept the photo and answerphone messages to protect their butt, first hand. Some amazingly good stuff and people, but yes, defintely illegal, unethical and dirty some manufacturers AND/Or their agents are, and still now, not just a long time ago, but currently too.

Are you talking about M&R?

Gilligan · April 11th, 2012, 07:44 PM

Brandt, the leak that I found during the install at Ted's was the lift cylinder. Also, PW lives in New Zealand, not Europe.

PW, hit the "ENTER" key from time to time man... I can't read that crap.

And he has a point... RWB selling Mustangs will hurt your sales, I don't know why you didn't just do like Barnes and call it something else.

Printwizard · April 11th, 2012, 08:43 PM

Brandt.
1) 2M like all companies needs orders and some more work, they will take press orders because businesses need work, Robert can get orders, they will manufacture good machines to specification and supply them to the customer, get it installed and then check up on them to see how they are running.
2) 2M Reacts to anything that needs attention if they are aware of it, even if a part may have an issue that hasn't faulted yet they will notify and sort any issue out in a timely and professional manner. This is not what Barnes / Printex did. Just because Printex did not make right has no reflection on 2M and how they operate. Different company, different culture. Buy a machine and you will have Mark / Mariusz phone number directly.
4) Karma (B.S). Some times the mean get meaner and get away with it, as seen with corporate greed all over the world. People get strong by being nasty and defending their space ruthlessly. Plenty of examples there. Plenty of people like Madoff fooled the best for decades. Be it Finance, Politics, Consumables, Sports Teams or Machines, not always, but sometimes there is nastiness and poison along the way.
5) 2M are not into being number one, they are never going to be or desire to be as big as some other Manufacturers. They just want a good steady stream of machines, based around one model with various solid features. Not the biggest, not ten different models from Entry to the Top End. They dont want to be biggest, or number one in the world, just after a comfortable fit.
6) Tell us, get rid of Robert, they need sales. Are you going to fill that void? Where are the sales coming from. You going to rep for them? So until you answer that one, they will graciously supply Roberts customers with damn fine machines that will be delivered and print what was agreed and how its specified to function. This fundamental of business is across the board. Sometimes you can sack customers, sometimes you must take the work and bank the cheque. Sure we sack a few as too hard, but they have to affect us before we sack them. When times are slower we have to do some stuff we dont necessarily agree with. Be it print for a radical church or motorcycle gang or political party. Some times you need the turnover and cashflow and its too detrimental to walk away. I am sure if you convinced some big distributors to take on 2M distribution and they offered more sales then they will drop Robert, question is, can you effect that.

Printwizard · April 11th, 2012, 08:48 PM

Gilligan, I operate a type of franchise/co-operative. 72 countries. We talk. Basically all branding companies who collectively import promo products. Not all print, there are embroiderers, pad, offset, signage, emgravers and trophy makers amongst us. About a third have screenprint inhouse, a bit over a third outsource textile screenprint and I would say a third stay away from textile. A lot of product development is done here, even for europe. Wouldnt be a day we dont talk to them.

Sorry, rush type when I can, forget to <enter>!!

Jeff, not naming names, More than one maker, predominantly one. Guarantee if I youtubed some stuff there would be several lawyers wanting it down, why would I want the drama of that, and thats the point, there are ratbags and dodge among suppliers, just nobody wants the drama of standing up to them and saying it aint right and fighting the consequences when they work in the industry. If I found 2M to do something I disagreed with ethically I would not try selling their machines. Wouldnt condone it. Would rather print by hand on principal.

Gilligan · April 11th, 2012, 08:48 PM

I guess maybe it should be sold like that.

Maybe the Guru should just call himself a sales guy, make the sales and GTFO... let someone else do the install and DEFINITELY don't let anyone think he will be the support.

Also, no one should ever write a check to anyone BUT the boys at 2M.

Prosperi-Tees · April 11th, 2012, 09:59 PM

I have a question. How big is 2Ms service network? If something were to go wrong how long would it take to get a tech out for repair? What does the warranty cover? That question is for all brands. Is the press owner responsible for all travel expenses for repair?

I was looking at the Tas website and they have a 4 year 4 million print warranty. But I also got a price for one of their presses and wowsers!!!

Printwizard · April 11th, 2012, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilligan

I guess maybe it should be sold like that.

Maybe the Guru should just call himself a sales guy, make the sales and GTFO... let someone else do the install and DEFINITELY don't let anyone think he will be the support.

Also, no one should ever write a check to anyone BUT the boys at 2M.

Agreed. How about you buy a machine off me, I have Winston install it, and the last 20% payable in 12 months after install based upon meeting operation benchmark. All the preliminary money you pay directly to 2M, and I take care of any balance to them and Winstons cost. I would put MY CASH where my mouth is. Warning, I would come for the install and drink all your beer.

I look at the service part as there are enough freelance people around. We run machines here without "the network" as there are heaps of mechanical, pneumatic, electrical engineers, fitters etc. These machines are not that rocket science. A lot of basic principals, common parts etc. It is important to have a working schematic on hand, and an electrical diagram. From there its common sense for any decent tradesman. Lots of industrial printers WAY more technical than these. Machines ten times the size, parts, value etc and maintained easily globally.

Its like servicing the BMW. Costs four times at the licensed dealer / service agent, but i get a better Job from the non-aligned guy down the road who has been good staff and tools. Some genuine parts, some aftermarket. It can be scary if you have the network, but when you realise the calibur of people and equipment, basic fundamentals and problem solving its not rocket science.

Printwizard · April 11th, 2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prosperi-Tees

I have a question. How big is 2Ms service network? If something were to go wrong how long would it take to get a tech out for repair? What does the warranty cover? That question is for all brands. Is the press owner responsible for all travel expenses for repair?

I was looking at the Tas website and they have a 4 year 4 million print warranty. But I also got a price for one of their presses and wowsers!!!

Awesome machines. Gerry see my previous answer. You can find locally a good air and pneumatics company, electrical engineer, fitter and turner. These people can liase with a manufacturer either by phone or skype with ipad and video, digital cameras, read onhand diagrams, they know common components locally available and can fix sometimes quicker than waiting a couple days for a genuine tech to visit. I use and electrical engineer on 24 hour callout, $50USD an hour and the guys are amazing. The mindset of 'The Network' is great, its reliable and all that, but it isnt the only option. Some of your engineering supplies places and electrical wholesale suppliers will know the best tradies to talk to. invite them over to see the press running and have a coffee, you will see they wont be scared, look who pokes and prods and you will find someone who can respond local fast and do the job, even if it meant talking to the maker, or referring to the drawings. Good guys are good at problem solving by sequence of elimination and logic. Like printers. There are some who cant, you can pick them quickly.

Prosperi-Tees · April 11th, 2012, 10:32 PM

Thanks for the reply PW. One of these days I'll have enough cash to upgrade to a more modern press, by that time in sure alot will change.

Printwizard · April 11th, 2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prosperi-Tees

Thanks for the reply PW. One of these days I'll have enough cash to upgrade to a more modern press, by that time in sure alot will change.

Change is guaranteed. Evolve or die. My family started printing in 1974, I started in 1992, and a lot has changed. Some things have not changed much, but one must always look forward. I remember the people knocking CMYK, knocking discharge inks (successfully here, few print discharge here), knocking simulated process (EasyArt was written here). I remember being told I couldnt print CMYK at 85line dot. I remember being told plastisol tone wont print at 144 line. When I started we printed tone no finer than 45 line dot. I remember telling another printer you cant print CMYK onto a Northface Goretex Jackets that has about 4 layers and have it in rego, and stick, likewise Ripstop Nylon (We tried every ink, transfer and vinyl and it failed). They worked it out, now we sub them all our jackets....
Thing is I have more stories about change where we didnt go offshore indent early enough, we didnt invest in new machines, we didnt invest in the latest unproven direct to substrate printer, and I got scared about cad-cut and laser printing. I listened to the knockers on a lot and missed the boat every time. I have more regrets about the stuff we didnt do, than the stuff we did and failed, and thats in my life in general. Once I got past that its been upwards since. Things like going out to a restaurant where no-one speaks english and guessing or picking a number on a menu. Couldnt do that before, but now I know food will be cheap in China and I insure myself by buying four meals for two of us. 50% we dont have to eat, and the balance is usually amazing. Risk, risk management, waste etc. We could argue, discuss, debate, agree forever, but what is the point. Some change is enevitable, there will be good and bad decisions. there will be new and old technology. there will be leaders, followers, innovators, success and failure. I am not to say which is ever right, but I do hat the pessimists and knockers, they get me down. id rather try and fail than not try at all.

BTW there was a good post here some months back called Remember When? - It was funny and sad in hindsight, but apart from the prices and run sizes there are no other regrets. Everything has gotten faster, easier and better. No looking back, Things change. What was the best then is no longer now, most no longer in business.

BTW: TAS pricing isnt helped by the AUD being stronger than the USD. There was a time where they were probably 40% cheaper on exchange rate alone not so long ago. Globally the exchange rate can change the value of a manufacturer, volume of sales, profitibility and thus reinvestment in R&D significantly. Have a look at SRoque. Not sure on how many machines in the US, but I know of some going into Canada and Brazil